Advanced Iron Home
May 26, 2013, 01:55:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you want to become a member of our forum, send an email to advancedironmembers at gmail dot com.
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why Extremis DIDN'T kill Iron Man (Yes Chaos, this is for you)  (Read 5243 times)
ROB JAN
Renaissance Armor
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1434



« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2008, 02:35:07 PM »

In the recent Civil War What IF? Extremis DID kill Tony....Cap ends up running the Registration, after much strife and associated fisticuffs.

Regarding secret identities and phonebooths I remember having a good chuckle in early Supes flicks when Big Blue dressed as Clarky ran up to one of the open, half sized phonepoints and looked frustrated....

Mobile phones have reduced the number of phone boxes even further, though if one is British there is ALWAYS the possibiity of finding, say, a singularly anachronistic but undeniably ubiquitous Police Telephone Box swanning around just when you need it.

On the subject of Tony's ailments I do wonder if he's got a magic portrait stashed somewhere in an attic that soaks up all the Grievous Bodily Harm he's taken over the years. Lord love a duck,  his enemies ever find that.... Roll Eyes

Between maladies and miladies poor old Tone sure has it tuff!



 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 02:38:34 PM by ROB JAN » Logged
Bethany Cabe
Stealth Armor
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 308



« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2008, 02:17:14 PM »

You make quite a few interesting, and in my opinion valid, points Bethany. Very insightful and nice analysis.

Thank you very much! *bows* I'm here all night.

Mobile phones have reduced the number of phone boxes even further, though if one is British there is ALWAYS the possibiity of finding, say, a singularly anachronistic but undeniably ubiquitous Police Telephone Box swanning around just when you need it.


Especially if one lives in Cardiff. True story: I was casually and innocently walking down a Cardiffian street a few weeks ago, looked around and suddenly realised I'd gone back in time. It was only when I rounded the corner and saw both Police Public Call Box and camera crew having tea and buscuits that I realised what was happening. Trippiest moment of my life, I can tell you.
Logged
ROB JAN
Renaissance Armor
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1434



« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2008, 02:49:40 PM »



Mobile phones have reduced the number of phone boxes even further, though if one is British there is ALWAYS the possibiity of finding, say, a singularly anachronistic but undeniably ubiquitous Police Telephone Box swanning around just when you need it.


Especially if one lives in Cardiff. True story: I was casually and innocently walking down a Cardiffian street a few weeks ago, looked around and suddenly realised I'd gone back in time. It was only when I rounded the corner and saw both Police Public Call Box and camera crew having tea and buscuits that I realised what was happening. Trippiest moment of my life, I can tell you.
[/quote]

*Sigh* A cuppa and bikkies with the Doc? Y'know, never let anyone tell you that the Sun has set on the British Empire...Wales is obviously the centre of the fan universe!

Most excellent encounter Bethany.
Logged
Chaos
Extremis Armor
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4142


I Hate Magic


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 11:37:35 AM »

Ok, here we go...

Quote
Extremis, in and of itself, is not antithical to Iron Man's person. Many of the powers it grants Tony Stark are things he could already do with less explanation. The only thing it really did for him was the healing factor, and lets face it, every super hero on Marvel Earth has that these days. (Whether or not they should is a completely different topic).

Extremis is like the armor: neither inherently good or bad, in that I will agree. But the problem is that when Tony got it, he became more than human and started acted as such. The once supremely outgoing and personable man was replaced with a strict, detached businessman who was more interested in the bottom line, and using his powers for multitasking more so than anything else. I don’t agree that it is just an explanation for stuff he could do before. He couldn’t have five meetings at once or read his email directly with his brain. He still had to do things like every normal human.



Quote
Throughout the years, Tony has augmented or saved himself through artifical means several times, from his first pacemaker-armor to his artificial nervous system, the concept is not new to Iron Man. The fact that he can now put on his Armor with a thought is a bit jarring at first, but not outside the progression of technology that Tony's been working on since '63. I propose that it only seems odd because as of late, authors have been slowing down and depowering Iron Man from his origional abilities. Back in the 60s, IM repeatedly stated that it took him 'mere seconds' to go from suitcase to fully armored, which is hardly more believable than the current telekinesis.


He’s been augmented, but nothing that really made him super human so to speak. Yes he had a pacemaker and artificial heart, but were they ever as good as the heart he was born with before the shrapnel? I don’t think so, especially when he had to keep recharging his heart. And the artificial nervous system didn’t allow him any more benefits than it did draw backs really. He went in and fixed the coding, but that’s what happened when he had neural feedback/ was attacked mentally. So while it did not physically get damaged, it did not physically repair on it’s own either. I would count those as different augmentations because those were meant solely to keep him alive and really added no enhanced strengths. Extremis makes him more than the average guy on the street.



Quote
The cyberpathy, while odd, was done occasionally back in volume one, it just used to require his armor be on at the time. It seems massively confusing to me as well, as a Computer Science major, I can firmly say "Computers don't work like that." As long as he keeps primarily to computers or other devices with wireless connections of some form I'm fine with it, but when he starts hacking into CCTV... that's when I get edgy. But hey, it's a superhero comic, let him do superheroic things.



The cyberpathy was different though. Telepresence makes you feel like you’re there, its not totally the same. And the saga with Vor/tex he downloaded his mind into cyberspace, it wasn’t quite the same as being connected to it like the internet. He wasn’t in his body at the time, which is how Vor/tex took over. And I don’t mind the exaggerated computer abilities in comics. They’re about fantasy, I say go with it.



Quote
While I will give that the Extremis story arc had many problems, the powerset is not responsible for many of them. My first problem with the arc is that it's slow paced and the art kind of sucks. Keep in mind I picked it up as a trade a year after it was origionally done, I really feel sorry for those of you who had to wait (I'm told) a year and a half for it to come out one issue at a time. There are many panels (and even pages) without accompanying text, no witty banter, no thought boxes (they don't use balloons anymore, but boxes are used on occasion) explaining what he's doing, just pictures that are kind of eh showing things. There's a part in the middle where Mallen goes on a killing spree for two and a half pages, and then it shows two panels of Tony finding out about it... while it could have been done in just those two panels. The introductions of Sal and Maya are a bit sketchy, apparently they're both people from his college days that he never mentioned before... meanwhile Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper are no where to be seen. Eh.



It wasn’t the arc itself that made me mad, it’s the powers that have been given t him. I wont disagree it was ridiculous how long it took, but it’s the whole idea of the arc in reinventing a character that didn’t need reinvented, just some writers that weren’t too lazy to read some back issues.

 

Quote
While I disagree with Warren Ellis's storyline and pacing and Garanov's art (am I seriously the only person that doesn't like it?), I am glad that the Knauf's are trying to do something with it. Their aforementioned lack of computer knowledge is excusable, as long as they keep the storyline interesting. Using the side-effects of Extremis as an excuse for Tony's increasing jackassery is good, and explains some of the more 'evil' things he's done during Civil War (I'm looking at you, 42). The Knauf's are doing a very good job of showing Tony's increasing sense of dispair and anxiety about everything. I fully expect them to get rid of Extremis eventually, but they'll do it in a well planned and in-continuity way. (If you want my theory, I'll start a new thread). They said in an article that "Execute Program" was a teaching experience, and it appears they have learned very well. Everything since has been pure gold.


It is nice to see the Knaufs running with it, and I agree about the storyline. It’s more about balance and story than it is knowledge. I go refer back to Kaminski who knew technology but also knew not to be over bearing with it and keep it in layman’s terms.

But what bugs me is when you said “using the side-effects of Extremis as an excuse for Tony’s increasing jackassery” That’s the problem I have with it. Tony isn’t a jackass. He never was until extremis. That is why I am saying extremis is derailing his character because all of a sudden he’s acting completely different. If Cap gets resurrected (or should I say when?), what if he was given another super soldier serum to make his recovery full, but it turned him into an aggressive, murdering anti-hero a la the Punisher? Would that still be considered Captain America? What if when the Hulk returns instead going “Hulk smash!” he said “let’s talk?” It’s completely out of place for the characters, and it’s not the characteristics that allowed them to grow popular.

And no, I am not big on Granov’s art either. His work on covers are much better than his page by page art in my opinion.



Quote
So in the end, Extremis did not kill Iron Man. Warren Ellis did a good job kicking him in the ribs and putting him in critical condition, but Danny and Charlie Knauf are doing their best to get him out of the hospital. And despite the recent faceplate incident, Ed Brubaker is helping too.

End transmission.

I am going to continue to say that yes, it did. I understand your arguments, but I think there are fundamental differences between them and extremis.
Logged

Roger A Ott II
Comic Book Historian
Global Moderator
Extremis Armor
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4388


Writer/Researcher for Marvel's Official Handbooks


« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2008, 12:47:12 PM »

it’s the whole idea of the arc in reinventing a character that didn’t need reinvented, just some writers that weren’t too lazy to read some back issues.

I get the impression that Warren Ellis thinks he's beyond having to read back issues, or even conform to continuity at all.  The way I understand it Ellis turned in his script with Tony having a secret ID again, so instead of editorial having the balls to tell Ellis to change his script they instead had to scramble to give Tony his secret ID back just before the Ellis arc started.    Notice how supporting cast members Happy and Pepper just disappeared and Ellis brought in some secretary we could care less about and shoehorned in some past acquaintances of Tony that we'd never heard of before.  And I realize that Rhodey was just such a past acquaintance when he first appeared, but I'll also say that Rhodey seemed to be slipped in quietly and built up over a few issues, while Maya Hansen and Sal Kennedy seemed thrust upon us for the story at hand.

Warren Ellis can certainly be considered a talented writer, but I think he's best suited to stay away from iconic super-heroes and just play in his own sandbox where he can screw up characters all he wants because they're his.
Logged
flyindrew712
Dons the Original Grey Armor
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9



« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2008, 12:06:29 PM »

I have been an Iron Man reader since 1974. Have grown to "know" characters like Tony,Rhodey, Pepper, Happy and Ms.Arbogast.  This most recent relaunch of Iron Man is a disgrace to this long time fan. Its as though Marvel got this "hot shot" writer and gave him carte blanche to destroy 40 years of Iron Man continuity. That, plus I could not stand the ongoing ultra leftist political rhetoric in the book. If I want political opinion, I'll read Al Frankken or turn on FOX News. Then comes Civil War. While Tony intelligently articulates his reasoning in the main title as well as the main Civil War book, other tie in books present Tony as a villain. Now as far as extremis is concerned, this is just another example of Marvel allowing writers to do what they want while ignoring the very things that made characters great in the first place.  I'm sticking with Iron Man for now as the only Marvel book I read, but the whole Civil War thing is responsible for DC being 99 percent of my read list
Logged
Chaos
Extremis Armor
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4142


I Hate Magic


WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2008, 12:31:50 PM »

Yes, Marvel seems to care a lot more about politics, realism and the writers name more than anything else these days; everything that old comics didnt have which made them great.
Logged

Iron Kaiser
Extremis Armor
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3234


This Afro will come back!


« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2008, 02:05:47 PM »

I hate politics.  Why can't Marvel just go back towards classic Sci-Fi/fantasy action?
Logged
ROB JAN
Renaissance Armor
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1434



« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2008, 02:14:04 PM »

I have been an Iron Man reader since 1974. Have grown to "know" characters like Tony,Rhodey, Pepper, Happy and Ms.Arbogast.  This most recent relaunch of Iron Man is a disgrace to this long time fan. Its as though Marvel got this "hot shot" writer and gave him carte blanche to destroy 40 years of Iron Man continuity. That, plus I could not stand the ongoing ultra leftist political rhetoric in the book. If I want political opinion, I'll read Al Frankken or turn on FOX News. Then comes Civil War. While Tony intelligently articulates his reasoning in the main title as well as the main Civil War book, other tie in books present Tony as a villain. Now as far as extremis is concerned, this is just another example of Marvel allowing writers to do what they want while ignoring the very things that made characters great in the first place.  I'm sticking with Iron Man for now as the only Marvel book I read, but the whole Civil War thing is responsible for DC being 99 percent of my read list

G'day and good to hear from you flyindrew712...hey, your handle rhymes!

I'm always fascinated to see that Iron Man attracts fans from all over, of all stamp. I think I've been reading I.M for roughly the same amount of  time as you (I think before the mid-70's I woz mostly looking at the pictures!)  Wink) and for me Iron Man was a big part of my own political awakening back then. I recall how Tony started out as a fairly cliched playboy arms dealer who even got his origin fighting the Red Menace but morphed and became considerably more sophisticated (though he never did quiet lose the playboy aspect...well, Tony does work pretty hard, give the bloke a break!) over time.

I remember vividly the issue of one comic where a war weary I.M used his repulsors to mound up a giant, anguished "WHY?" on a corpse strewn battlefield....boy, did that ever help shape my young mind!

Of all the heroes I read it seemed to me that I.M was the one who always was involved in the biggest issues
and for me reflected the larger concerns of the world better than some less complex, more two dimensional characters.

So here am I, more or less rather left wing in my views (with the caveat that I think that a bird probably needs both wings if it's gonna fly!) and a welded on Iron Man fan who won't vote for a conservative government until they demonstrate that they're actually able to conserve something rather than squander it.  

Nevertheless, most days I'm not really an Extremis fan either since I can't get past the fundamental alteration of the nature of Iron Man that it implies. And yet...that kind of integral biotech is most assuredly cutting edge science, which Tony has, after all, been surfing since the 1960s...so there are whole other days when I'm kind of fascinated to see where this takes him. One thing I would like to see is some more serious ponderin' in the comics themselves about this Extremis bizzo. Some more thought balloons please! (Oh my stars and garters, just what we need!)

Continuity wobbles I can absorb readily enuff even if they by turns make me frown and cackle.  As with any other long running multi-contributor artwork that's practically inevitable. (Guess I'm kinda used to it being a Star Trek and Doctor Who fan!) I wouldn't necessarilly blame the current story arcs particularly for messing with continuity...though this time the swing does seem more 'extreme' than some.  

Marvel would doubtless be pleased to know that of late I've been scrabbling dutifully around fascinatedly following I.M across several titles...though, y'know, I can't think of any of those I'll stick with once the I.M content ebbs. I didn't embrace all the Civil War titles by any means...too many! But I was absolutely riveted by the concept as it was a genuinely complicated issue that even Tony's legendary "Can Do!" problem solving genius was going to have difficulties with. What a tiger to grab by the tail.

Anyway, always intrigued to read what other good folks bring to their reading of Iron Man and a pleasure to find Advanced Iron is such a melting pot (forging crucible!) of richly diverse alloys.

    
Logged
Bethany Cabe
Stealth Armor
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 308



« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2008, 02:55:43 PM »



Continuity wobbles I can absorb readily enuff even if they by turns make me frown and cackle.  As with any other long running multi-contributor artwork that's practically inevitable. (Guess I'm kinda used to it being a Star Trek and Doctor Who fan!) I wouldn't necessarilly blame the current story arcs particularly for messing with continuity...though this time the swing does seem more 'extreme' than some.  
 

Although that said, Doctor Who at least plugs its continuity wobbles through the books. After the 'Two Doctors' came out they wrote a book that basically explained why Patrick Troughton's Doctor suddenly had grey hair - in reality, of course, he was about twenty years older than when he'd been doing Doctor Who himself, but the explanation was something about him having just been exposed to an odd energy/ uniquely quirky monster/ miscellaneous other in his own time-stream. Or something. Details...

Back on point: its a shame there's no equivalent service in Marvel, a Continuity Sub-Editor who seeks out continuity flaws and assigns their treatment to junior writers to resolve in a single issue that will subsequently be published in Mighty World of Marvel or some such. So, for example: Stark Tower being established in both 2004 and 2005 (according to New Avengers) came about because of an almost-too-small-to-mention bit of hijinks where Johnny Storm has a slight mis-hap with Reed's time machine, goes back about three or four years, doesn't want to tell Past Reed what he's done, goes to Tony, remembers to keep quiet about the whole Disassembled thing but lets slip about the tower, thus giving Tony the idea to build it a year earlier than he originally had.

Brilliant, yes?
Logged
ROB JAN
Renaissance Armor
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1434



« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2008, 03:19:24 PM »

LOL Beth, that's coz Whovians and Trekkers are like comic book fans when it comes to trivia, only more so....

I remember how the Who writers changed Leela's eye colour (Jameson was having trouble with the contacts lenses required to change her blue eyes brown) and anticipated continuity protests by simply arranging for her character to be exposed to the flash from an exploding Rutan spaceship. "Pigment dispersal" quips the Doctor glibly, with a smile, "That's interesting."

Was a day when we could earn a cash-in-able 'No Prize' for spotting continuity errors in Marvel....sigh!

That's a bonza idea Bethany, Continuity Comic! Coupled with an online forum to encourage interactivity and fan submissions no doubt. Marketing would love that, sell more issues because the fans perceive themselves as 'stakeholders'. (Well, certainly, I ruddy well feel like one after all the money I've shellheaded out, over the years.)

 
Logged
I Like Cynic
Guest
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2008, 08:41:05 PM »


 To be honest, sticking to continuity as such, doesnt bother me. In fact I think that often too much heavy handed attention to continuity can bog down or diminish the effect of the story. I've always dipped in and out of Iron man, bought the arcs i've liked and dropped the ones I didn't. Thus I avoided teen tony (though did buy back issues, for shame) and that Tony becoming a secretary of some sort business. I've always looked on Iron man as akin to the mythic heroes of old, and each creative team is bringing their own take on the legend, some accounts openly contradicting others but in general maintaining the essence of the characters. Thus when people say "I hated issue 25 of the Knauf run cause Tony should have used his surplus excess disco generator first seen in issue 15 panel 4, and he clearly didn't have pulse bolts in that suit" etc, I think to myself, well yeah but it doesn't really matter that much cause it's still a cool story and Tony's character is intact, the essence of Iron man is there. Now what really irks me is what I heard going on in Civil war, where Tony's character gets completely smeared and reading his bio (from the Director of shield graphic novel) is like reading a villains bio. That's when we need to get all huffy in my opinion.

 30 years or more of continuity, condensed into about a decade marvel time is all a bit much. Reading The Mandarin's bio the other day actually made me laugh. I mean if this was a super villain CV he'd get laughed out of the office, "get out and take those gaudy rings and never darken my doorstep again" they'd say. In fact I hope most of the Mandarin's past will be ignored and we can just go from the casey run now and everything from dragon seed on.

 I think that writers should respect what writers before have established, to an extent, but also be free to go in their own direction and ignore the excess stuff they just don't need. After all, if we have extremis and then the Knaufs just say "nah, thats rubbish, away with that, lets make Tony a gardener and focus on the hitherto unexplored horticultural aspects of Iron Man" it's just pointless having a continuity at all and Iron Man should just become a collection of "what ifs". But, especially in a comic like Iron Man, where evolution is inherent in the character, too much attention to continuity will be too restrictive, and atmosphere heavy titles like the current run would be impossible. Also Iron Man would basically be nigh on invincible by now anyway and characters like Thor would just lose the the role they fulfill in the Marvel mythology cause Iron Man will be drastically more powerful taking into consideration every aspect of his evolution.
Logged
ROB JAN
Renaissance Armor
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1434



« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 03:45:58 PM »

 Cheesy I Like Cynic...

Tony as a...gardener?

I for one would pay good money for the first issue of the new "Tony Park" horticulture magazine.

Ta for brightening my day!  Cool
Logged
I Like Cynic
Guest
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2008, 05:35:41 PM »


 Dude I owed you for the losing face plate gag Grin
Logged
Zakalwe
First Red & Gold Armor
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2008, 01:37:36 AM »

Cheesy I Like Cynic...

Tony as a...gardener?

I for one would pay good money for the first issue of the new "Tony Park" horticulture magazine.

Ta for brightening my day!  Cool

...we can view the new and awesome Cabbage-Armor!!!

 Grin
Logged

Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or else.
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
'; /***************** ** httpBL START ** *****************/ global $sourcedir, $modSettings; if ($modSettings['httpBL_enable']) { require_once($sourcedir . '/httpBL_Subs.php'); $honeyLink = httpBL_honeylink($modSettings['httpBL_honeyPot_link'], $modSettings['httpBL_honeyPot_word']); echo $honeyLink; } /***************** ** httpBL END ** *****************/ echo '