Why Extremis DIDN'T kill Iron Man (Yes Chaos, this is for you)

[Agent 333]

Alright, so we all know that Chaos thinks that Extremis destroyed Iron Man and everything he stands for. I propose a counterargument.

Extremis, in and of itself, is not antithical to Iron Man's person. Many of the powers it grants Tony Stark are things he could already do with less explanation. The only thing it really did for him was the healing factor, and lets face it, every super hero on Marvel Earth has that these days. (Whether or not they should is a completely different topic).
Throughout the years, Tony has augmented or saved himself through artifical means several times, from his first pacemaker-armor to his artificial nervous system, the concept is not new to Iron Man. The fact that he can now put on his Armor with a thought is a bit jarring at first, but not outside the progression of technology that Tony's been working on since '63. I propose that it only seems odd because as of late, authors have been slowing down and depowering Iron Man from his origional abilities. Back in the 60s, IM repeatedly stated that it took him 'mere seconds' to go from suitcase to fully armored, which is hardly more believable than the current telekinesis.
The cyberpathy, while odd, was done occasionally back in volume one, it just used to require his armor be on at the time. It seems massively confusing to me as well, as a Computer Science major, I can firmly say "Computers don't work like that." As long as he keeps primarily to computers or other devices with wireless connections of some form I'm fine with it, but when he starts hacking into CCTV... that's when I get edgy. But hey, it's a superhero comic, let him do superheroic things.

While I will give that the Extremis story arc had many problems, the powerset is not responsible for many of them. My first problem with the arc is that it's slow paced and the art kind of sucks. Keep in mind I picked it up as a trade a year after it was origionally done, I really feel sorry for those of you who had to wait (I'm told) a year and a half for it to come out one issue at a time. There are many panels (and even pages) without accompanying text, no witty banter, no thought boxes (they don't use balloons anymore, but boxes are used on occasion) explaining what he's doing, just pictures that are kind of eh showing things. There's a part in the middle where Mallen goes on a killing spree for two and a half pages, and then it shows two panels of Tony finding out about it... while it could have been done in just those two panels. The introductions of Sal and Maya are a bit sketchy, apparently they're both people from his college days that he never mentioned before... meanwhile Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper are no where to be seen. Eh.
Oh, before I move on, I want to make a complaint about the last panel of the storyline where Tony says he can now look himself in the mirror again... why? He didn't go through any character development in the storyline, if anything he became more of a jerk. So what gives?

While I disagree with Warren Ellis's storyline and pacing and Garanov's art (am I seriously the only person that doesn't like it?), I am glad that the Knauf's are trying to do something with it. Their aforementioned lack of computer knowledge is excusable, as long as they keep the storyline interesting. Using the side-effects of Extremis as an excuse for Tony's increasing jackassery is good, and explains some of the more 'evil' things he's done during Civil War (I'm looking at you, 42). The Knauf's are doing a very good job of showing Tony's increasing sense of dispair and anxiety about everything. I fully expect them to get rid of Extremis eventually, but they'll do it in a well planned and in-continuity way. (If you want my theory, I'll start a new thread). They said in an article that "Execute Program" was a teaching experience, and it appears they have learned very well. Everything since has been pure gold.

So in the end, Extremis did not kill Iron Man. Warren Ellis did a good job kicking him in the ribs and putting him in critical condition, but Danny and Charlie Knauf are doing their best to get him out of the hospital. And despite the recent faceplate incident, Ed Brubaker is helping too.

End transmission.

[Tetragrammaton]

I thought Extremis didn't kill Tony because he's one of the 3% of people who possess the DNA sequence that enables them to survive the Extremis enhancile process.

[I Like Cynic]

 I think that a lack of scientific knowledge is most definitely excusable. A great scientist doesn't necessarily make a great story teller. Probably people well versed in both science and narrative skill are few and far between, especially in comics though I may be mistaken. Knauf's have a great knack at creating tension and atmosphere which is bringing a hitherto unseen level of menace and impending doom to the book. I can certainly see why it doesn't appeal to all, but it is a real breath of fresh air for me, and all great art has both it's supporters and it's detractors.

 TBH I really don't like the idea of civil war and the notion of superheros unmasking themselves. I think the creators of this story got too far ahead of themselves and missed the point of the superhero as myth and symbol of the modern age. Secret identities have more meaning than just hiding a man from the public to enact vigilante justice or devious feats. And while extremis does detract from the self made man element of stark, I think that if we must have him as director of shield with super powers sans secret identity, we couldnt have better writers handling it.

[Chaos]

I was wondering where your response was, Agent. Nice to see you took the time to flesh things out. I'm on sporadically at work right now, so when I get the chance to make a full fledged rebuttle I will.

I think that a lack of scientific knowledge is most definitely excusable. A great scientist doesn't necessarily make a great story teller. Probably people well versed in both science and narrative skill are few and far between, especially in comics though I may be mistaken. Knauf's have a great knack at creating tension and atmosphere which is bringing a hitherto unseen level of menace and impending doom to the book. I can certainly see why it doesn't appeal to all, but it is a real breath of fresh air for me, and all great art has both it's supporters and it's detractors.

I agree. Kaminski is really the only one I've seen be able to add in a lot of the so call "techno babble" and keep a good story going, but he also wasnt heavy on it. Kind of funny that on another message board, there is one guy, I think he's in his fifties, has been an engineer all his life and is all into the scientific method, mathematical justification etc. He wrote some fanfic and the one guy responded to him something like "I'm not trying to be mean, but your story reads like an instruction manual." The guy was so heavy on explaining the technology behind everything he had little substance to his story.

TBH I really don't like the idea of civil war and the notion of superheros unmasking themselves. I think the creators of this story got too far ahead of themselves and missed the point of the superhero as myth and symbol of the modern age. Secret identities have more meaning than just hiding a man from the public to enact vigilante justice or devious feats. And while extremis does detract from the self made man element of stark, I think that if we must have him as director of shield with super powers sans secret identity, we couldnt have better writers handling it.

Again, I agree. Too much realism has been injected into marvel anymore. They seem so keen on making it "how would our world react to this" that they forgot that it isnt our world they're in. COmics are about fantasy, not realism, and I think they've lost touch with that. I still get mad every time I see an F-15 on the Hellicarrier.

[I Like Cynic]

Agreed. Nicely put. Wondering why people accept masked vigilantes (ie superheroes) is like wondering how the economy of mordor works, or when elisa maza from gargoyles sleeps, or how the virgin Mary could give birth without intercourse. If you aren't willing to suspend disbelief enough to enter into a fictional universe you have to question why you are buying into it in the first place.
 That being said, I think Civil war does open up an important dialogue as to the nature of the super hero comic and it's relevance in the 21st century, after all 30 odd years ago Iron man was battling the red menace, and even Kaminski (my favourite IM writer, and btw I so agree with everything you said concerning sci fi heavy writers and how Kaminsky brilliantly walked the fine line between science babble and great story telling) dealt with the Japanese in a manner reflecting the age and opinions people in the west had of the Japanese at the time (though I do love the masters of silence, yay), so I suppose civil war deals with real world issues in a way that is true to the marvel tradition. The only thing is, all mythologies are relevant to the lives of people at the time they circulated, however civil war as you rightly mentioned shoehorned real world ideas that weren't compatible with the marvel universe in the first place, and that is the assumption that masked vigilantism was unacceptable. It clearly wasnt in the marvel universe, and as I mentioned before there was a reason for masks and secret identities way beyond the face value of hiding one's identity (i mean really, walking into a telephone box?), secret identities represent numerous things, each different to the individual who interprets them. But the creators of Civil war took it too literally and did away with a great deal of what made the marvel universe special. Not unlike revealing the world of Harry Potter to Muggles, it just destroys the point of the universe.

[The IronJedi]

... or how the virgin Mary could give birth without intercourse...

From Luke's Account (a respectable doctor/man of science, btw), Chapter 1-

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to the Galilean village of Nazareth 27 to a virgin engaged to be married to a man descended from David. His name was Joseph, and the virgin's name, Mary. 28 Upon entering, Gabriel greeted her: Good morning! You're beautiful with God's beauty, Beautiful inside and out! God be with you. 29 She was thoroughly shaken, wondering what was behind a greeting like that. 30 But the angel assured her, "Mary, you have nothing to fear. God has a surprise for you: 31 You will become pregnant and give birth to a son and call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, be called 'Son of the Highest.' The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David; 33 He will rule Jacob's house forever - no end, ever, to his kingdom." 34 Mary said to the angel, "But how? I've never slept with a man." 35 The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, the power of the Highest hover over you; Therefore, the child you bring to birth will be called Holy, Son of God. 36 "And did you know that your cousin Elizabeth conceived a son, old as she is? Everyone called her barren, and here she is six months' pregnant! 37 Nothing, you see, is impossible with God." 38 And Mary said, Yes, I see it all now: I'm the Lord's maid, ready to serve. Let it be with me just as you say. Then the angel left her. Blessed Among Women

That may shed a little light on the how, but it's still a matter of faith when it comes right down to it...

[I Like Cynic]

 Therein lies my point. If you are a Christian, and you choose to invest in the story of the immaculate conception or the annunciation, then there's little point questioning the nature of it, in the same way if you   
 are a fan of the marvel universe, there is little point questioning why people in said universe never themselves questioned why masked heroes run about the city completely unchecked. It's just part of that universe. It's different in that respect from our own. To invest into particular mythologies or universes like the marvel universe you have to suspend certain parts of your disbelief in order to enjoy. Hell dont even start on the messed up animal relationships in the Disney universe. I mean, pluto is the faithful servant to a mouse with a higher level of consciousness while goofy (also a dog) is one of his best mates. Minnie Mouse own a cat for crying out loud. It's best just to enjoy it and not question too much the nature of these universes, and in the Disney case, by doing so you run risk of heading into some pretty trippy territory. 

[The IronJedi]

... dont even start on the messed up animal relationships in the Disney universe. I mean, pluto is the faithful servant to a mouse with a higher level of consciousness while goofy (also a dog) is one of his best mates. Minnie Mouse own a cat for crying out loud. It's best just to enjoy it and not question too much the nature of these universes, and in the Disney case, by doing so you run risk of heading into some pretty trippy territory. 

I've always wondered about that too... I mean c'mon, Pluto and Goofy? Maybe the Mandarin or somebody else running around with Extremis in the Disney-verse?

[I Like Cynic]

 I had a student sum it up perfectly once, she had to summerise this conundrum with one adjective. She chose to say with such conviction "Disney is...yes Disney is very....mysterious."

 Indeed. Knaufs couldn't have written it better.

[Bethany Cabe]

This is a very good point. You want the universe to be realistic, not reality. I was re-reading Essential Daredevil vol 1 recently, and in there DD gets arrested - falsely, of course. Specifically, though, he's been knocked out when he gets arrested, but when Matt wakes up in his cell he's still wearing his mask. The following is the actual dialogue:

Daredevil: Did anyone remove my mask while I was unconscious?

Policeman: Naw! A whole team of D.A.'s are still arguin' about whether they got the right to do it or not!

Yes, in our universe vigilantism is illegal. On arresting anyone, the police have the right to remove their mask should they be wearing them, because that's rather the point of arresting someone: to find out who they are and stop them from doing it again. Within a universe where superheroes are the norm, however, these rules cannot apply, or there's no point to the universe.

Extremis-wise, when I first read Extremis itself I interpretted it as simply a clever and convenient way for Tony to transport and don the armour with a few nifty new abilities (talking to computers). I didn't realise he'd actually left in the healing factor, I thought that was just a clever and convenient way of growing him a shiny new heart that wouldn't keep inexplicably bursting forth as a plot contrivance - and, of course, of curing his near-fatal injuries. Obviously I was wrong about that, since he promptly states in Execute Program that he does now have a healing factor.

But that, to me, is very much in character for our Tony. Think about it: in Extremis he implies he was about nineteen when the whole shrapnel-in-the-heart thing royally buggered up his life. He's now about thirty-six-ish; in his thirties, at any rate. That means, poor lad, that he went straight from adolescence to broken body, knowing that any day could be his last and he's on borrowed time. He becomes Iron Man not just to extend his life a bit, but to try to do some good in the world before he dies. He founds the Avengers as his legacy to the world. Whilst an Avenger, he develops no adult sense of boundary or limitation; to Tony, he's living on borrowed time and will die soon anyway, so he might as well push himself all the way. At the same time, though, he becomes the first of them to face a disciplinary hearing for 'Dereliction of duty' - basically, his heart nearly upped and killed him in the midst of battle. Despite founding the Avengers, he knows that he'll always be letting them down because of his body being all messed up.

Then he gets his heart transplant, and makes a token effort at resting up before launching himself right back into the armour, because in addition to his lack of limitation Tony now knows that his new heart won't give out, so he can simply work all the harder. The alcoholism becomes inevitable; he never had to worry about excess before, since to his mind he was dying, so it's habit. It becomes his standard coping-tool for his crazily hectic double-life. After it, his liver is now all kinds of messed-up, presumably. Then he has that heart attack, which basically proves to him that his body is always going to let him down - but to Tony, that's not the point, because he never really thinks of himself. To him, his body is always going to let down everyone else, just like at the beginning of the Avengers.

So when given the chance to have a healing factor? Of course he jumps at it. Now he can push himself as hard and as far as he thinks he needs to, and it'll never be a problem again.

And actually, when I think of Tony in those terms his Civil War behaviour almost makes sense. Everything he did, although wrong, was done with the express purpose of saving everyone else, even to his own detriment. That's what Tony's always done.

Well, that's my take on him, anyway. I still think Civil War was bloody stupid. And the Extremis would have been better if he had designed it himself. Oh, and I'm not Adi Granov's biggest fan either, actually. He does the armour brilliantly, but he can't draw faces or motion for toffee.

[The IronJedi]

You make quite a few interesting, and in my opinion valid, points Bethany. Very insightful and nice analysis.

[Roger A Ott II]

Agreed.  Very well stated.  My biggest problem with the Extremis stuff has been the healing factor.  That particular ability is so overused these days it's unbelievable.

Outside of that, Extremis doesn't bother me so much anymore.  I could take it or leave it, though I have a feeling that eventually it will go away to leave us with a more classic non-superhuman version of the character.  I just hope he's done with having heart problems.  When Joe Quesadilla brought back that tired old plot device, I had to suppress a gag.

[Iron Kaiser]

Joe Quesadilla

 

I just hope he's done with having heart problems.

Agreed.  It was good for the beginning of Stark's life as Iron Man, but Stark needs to stop having maladies with his heart/nervous system period.

[Tetragrammaton]

Instead of the heart condition, they could use blindness forcing him to rely on the armor's sensors and "rader-sense".

...or a maybe gambling addiction?

[Roger A Ott II]

Shhhh....

Don't give 'em any ideas...