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Author Topic: Most under-rated and over-rated Iron Man armors  (Read 1398 times)
The IronJedi
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 06:47:27 AM »

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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 02:44:44 PM »

This is a hard one...

I'll agree on the Telepresence unit being underrated. I always thought it was an awesome concept despite the fact that it got its ass handed to it constantly. I think this was mainly because since they didn't have a man inside they were free to show Iron Man getting ripped apart without worrying about killing Tony. Again.

And I can't agree anymore about the Extremis suit being overrated. I'm sick of having discussions in other forums where people believe Iron Man is so much more powerful with Extremis even though he's managed to do some many more spectacular things in the past without it.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2009, 03:12:10 PM »

I liked the NTU-150 due to all of the weapons it had and how it didn't have a pilot inside to get killed as easily.  That way it could afford to get impaled every issue.

Regardless of its durability it did look amazingly tough in terms of appearance.  It had no mouth slit and with those guns it was like a Red and Gold War Machine.
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 09:46:29 AM »

The problem with the Telepresence was that in order to keep Tony in jeopardy rather than safely away from combat, Kaminski kept reminding us of how the feedback from damage could kill him. But nothing ever came of it. He never got really hurt by the feedback, not even knocked out, if memory serves.

I wouldn't mind seeing an upgraded NTU, though. Imagine things like booster rockets popping out of the sides of his thighs sort of like Robocop's gun. NTU-300, anyone? Just keep Kevin Hopgood away from it. One of the worst and overrated IM artists, barely better than Herb Trimpe and worse than Paul Ryan.
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Iron Kaiser
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2010, 12:14:23 PM »

You are unfortunately not entirely correct.  In issue 299 Stark got thrown into a coma from Ultimo ripping the Telepresence's arms and head off.  Also, in the Avengers West Coast Annual #8 I remember Tony getting knocked out when the Telepresence unit was buried under somebody just after kicking the USAgent's possessed a$$.  In Iron Man #291, Tony keeled over after taking too much punishment from the Battle Droids.  Last, in Iron Man #295 Tony would have died if the Telepresence had self-destructed while he was still jacked in if it wasn't for the Goddess coming in to swipe his astral form away.

Your statement still holds some ground though, since on countless occasions the Telepresence unit had a single arm ripped off, got impaled in the chest, had its head pierced with tentacles from the Technovore, had holes punched in its shoulders and legs, etc. yet Tony never took much mental feedback damage from those attacks.  It just seems that the whole Neural Feedback problem was just a plot device look you said where it prevented the reader from thinking that Tony was unkillable now.
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2010, 08:52:09 AM »

Instead of the manufactured peril of "neural feedback," a new NTU could have some realistic limitations that don't involve immediately hurting or killing Tony. Some possibilities:
  • NTUs (and Iron Man suits) are incredibly sophisticated systems. It should take months to fabricate one and put it through the necessary testing and debugging. You don't just fly into combat in an untested suit and it shouldn't take only hours to build one like we've seen in the comics.
  • While destruction of an NTU wouldn't immediately kill Tony, it would be a major setback in battle if you get careless and lose your first line of defense. Sort of like fighter pilots have ejection seats so they can escape and aren't really in danger, but it's still not good to lose an F-22.
  • An NTU (or IM suit) would cost several hundred million dollars. Even a multibillionaire like Tony can't afford to build a huge collection of them, especially if he wants it to be absolute top of the line and state of the art to combat the most dangerous threats.
  • An NTU would need an incredibly powerful energy supply. Like experts say about lithium batteries, the problem is that when you pack a lot of energy into a little space, uncontrolled release of that energy can be extremely dangerous. Lithium batteries catch fire. A damaged NTU power supply may explode like a small nuke. Not the best scenario in any populated area (not to mention a PR nightmare), so serious damage (like impaling) is definitely something to be avoided.
  • Tony's real body should be immobile and senseless as he's operating the suit. The human brain can't handle two completely different and conflicting sets of sensory inputs, Extremis multitasking notwithstanding. People already get motion sickness when what they see doesn't match what their inner ear tells them. With his body basically shut down, he would be completely vulnerable, so he needs to find someplace safe to operate the NTU from.

Basically, things that would keep Tony from being completely blasé and careless when going into battle, even though he wouldn't personally be in immediate danger.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 09:05:51 AM by Titanium Man » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2010, 10:07:34 AM »

That's a pretty thoughtful analysis of how an NTU could raise some major issues.  I wonder if it has become the norm to use the F-22 as the standard when it comes to the fear of losing expensive equipment.  I had this thought first when I went out to Nellis Air Force Base for Aviation Nation '09 and felt that the F-22 gave a pi$$-poor showing in terms of aerobatic display.  I immediately felt that with the F-22 losing its funding for continued production through FY '10 as well as its notoriously high operating and flyaway costs that the air force still has an obsession with not crashing the blasted thing.

I apologize for going Off-topic but it just occurred to me that everyone is always talking about the F-22 when it comes to expensive aircraft that nobody wants to lose.
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2010, 10:13:33 AM »

Instead of the manufactured peril of "neural feedback," a new NTU could have some realistic limitations that don't involve immediately hurting or killing Tony. Some possibilities:
  • NTUs (and Iron Man suits) are incredibly sophisticated systems. It should take months to fabricate one and put it through the necessary testing and debugging. You don't just fly into combat in an untested suit and it shouldn't take only hours to build one like we've seen in the comics.
  • While destruction of an NTU wouldn't immediately kill Tony, it would be a major setback in battle if you get careless and lose your first line of defense. Sort of like fighter pilots have ejection seats so they can escape and aren't really in danger, but it's still not good to lose an F-22.
  • An NTU (or IM suit) would cost several hundred million dollars. Even a multibillionaire like Tony can't afford to build a huge collection of them, especially if he wants it to be absolute top of the line and state of the art to combat the most dangerous threats.
  • An NTU would need an incredibly powerful energy supply. Like experts say about lithium batteries, the problem is that when you pack a lot of energy into a little space, uncontrolled release of that energy can be extremely dangerous. Lithium batteries catch fire. A damaged NTU power supply may explode like a small nuke. Not the best scenario in any populated area (not to mention a PR nightmare), so serious damage (like impaling) is definitely something to be avoided.
  • Tony's real body should be immobile and senseless as he's operating the suit. The human brain can't handle two completely different and conflicting sets of sensory inputs, Extremis multitasking notwithstanding. People already get motion sickness when what they see doesn't match what their inner ear tells them. With his body basically shut down, he would be completely vulnerable, so he needs to find someplace safe to operate the NTU from.

Basically, things that would keep Tony from being completely blasé and careless when going into battle, even though he wouldn't personally be in immediate danger.

While you have a legitimate argument, some of these have been used in the comics. I jsut re-read the Dragon Seed and when Tony was piloting the armor remotely he got distracted and the armor ended up getting hit becuase of it. It also happened in 299 where hewas distracted fighting Ultimo and the armor got ripped apart.

When it comes to frabicating, it's never going to be months. While no doubt more realistic a comic's time frame in the story just wont allow for it. Similar for the cost of the suits. They costs billions and the argonauts took up most of Stark's personal fortune to build. But for sotry sake, it's just not going to happen he will stop building them.

Energy supply was not a problem for a long stretch of time after the beta-particle generator was introduced. It provided substantial power and a quick recharge time. It hasnt been until more recent years we have seen this problem once more. I dont know much about the reactor, but I do believe it was safe both in terms of radiation and incidental release of energy.
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Iron Kaiser
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2010, 10:39:42 AM »

The Arc reactor appears to work off of the mythical principle of cold fusion.  I say this because it used palladium in the film not unlike Martin Fleischmann's experiments, as well as apparently being able to generate a fusion reaction at a temperature that doesn't incinerate Tony immediately.  That, and Agent 333 described in the IM movie novelization that the Arc Reactor can apparently generate more heat than what is put into it, which is something Fleischmann claimed his little Cold Fusion reactor could do. 

Therefore, I am with Chaos on the fact that Iron Man's current armor is powered by something that is safe, powerful, and is only a myth by real-world standards. Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2010, 05:22:43 PM »

While you have a legitimate argument, some of these have been used in the comics. I jsut re-read the Dragon Seed and when Tony was piloting the armor remotely he got distracted and the armor ended up getting hit becuase of it. It also happened in 299 where he was distracted fighting Ultimo and the armor got ripped apart.

That's precisely what I'm arguing against. Tony should be completely insensate while operating a Telepresence rig. Just like Doctor Strange when he uses astral projection. Like he said in IM 22, he will be completely defenseless while his consciousness has left his body. That's one thing James Cameron did right in Avatar. The controllers had no awareness of what was happening around their real bodies, which meant anyone could attack them or just shut them down.

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When it comes to frabicating, it's never going to be months. While no doubt more realistic a comic's time frame in the story just wont allow for it. Similar for the cost of the suits. They costs billions and the argonauts took up most of Stark's personal fortune to build. But for sotry sake, it's just not going to happen he will stop building them.

I would think Tony is smart enough to start work on a new armor a few months in advance, but nevertheless, it's just been unrealistic for the last couple of decades. He's beaten in one armor, so a few days later, he appears in an all-new 100% complete suit that happens to work perfectly. See how easily he beat Stane's Iron Monger or Firepower. Not a single glitch in those during their maiden battles. He should sometimes have to take a suit into combat that's not 100% ready and doesn't work perfectly.

I miss the days during the Classic era when his one armor (plus older, obsolete models) was all he used in every situation, rather than unveiling specialized suits by the truckload as if there were a production line. That was an era when he used to repair and upgrade his armor rather than replace it the way some people buy new computers every couple of years.

Actually, I was speaking with a friend and he said that's exactly how Tony got so rich. He actually can build this kind of advanced technology on the cheap and hits the government with a 100,000% markup.

Therefore, I am with Chaos on the fact that Iron Man's current armor is powered by something that is safe, powerful, and is only a myth by real-world standards. Cheesy

I'm not talking about the current armor in the comics, but what the armor should be. Tony has it so easy in the comics thanks to the writing. He can have almost everything in his technology. It can be immensely powerful yet completely safe. That's ridiculous. Realistically, a superpowerful energy source should also be extremely dangerous.
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2010, 06:03:08 PM »

You keep thinking in terms of realism. If everything about comics were real, no one would read them. The whole point is they are fantasy. Iron Man may be more grounded than most characters, but if everything was done like the real world, the armor and comic would suck. Too much realism has taken the fun out of comics in recent years, and I'm not reading a comic so I can have a specific view of the real world. It's a break from the real world, so who gives a crap if everything is so much easier for Stark in the comics? I'm not paying $2.99 an issue to see him field test every system and do bookkeeping to track the costs. There is a reason these things are left out: they're boring, slow down the story and add nothing in the process. I'll suspend belief and go with it because it makes for a better product.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:06:43 PM by Chaos » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2010, 01:16:35 AM »

All I'm suggesting is realistic jeopardy rather than the artificial jeopardy they come up with. You say you don't want to read about "bookkeeping." Yet they brought up similar points in the current Ultimate Armor Wars miniseries. You say you don't want to see him field test systems. But there are plenty of things they can do behind the scenes. We don't have to see everything, just to know that it wasn't swept under the rug, that Tony doesn't apparently have a huge warehouse of armors to select from. Where's the "fun" in "Well, okay, I just got my butt handed to me and another armor destroyed. Okay, I'll just grab another suit that's conveniently all set to go and proceed to wipe the floor with the villain"? Notice in the movie that the armor didn't spring full-grown from his imagination. He had to test the boot jets, which threw him against a wall when he first tried them, and the repulsors, which gave him a kick he'll never forget when he fired it. He had to flight-test his first iteration flying armor. Nobody complained that all of that was "boring." Look at how easily he beat his Argonauts using his regular armor, most of which conveniently couldn't "read his mind" except for the Hulkbuster. If it's that simple, why even bother to have specialized suits? If we're going to ditch all sense of realism, we might as well go back to solar-charging the armor, or charging it from a portable gasoline generator like he sometimes did back in the Classic era.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:21:12 AM by Titanium Man » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2010, 08:32:37 AM »

All I'm suggesting is realistic jeopardy rather than the artificial jeopardy they come up with. You say you don't want to read about "bookkeeping." Yet they brought up similar points in the current Ultimate Armor Wars miniseries.


I dont read the Ultimate series. I read the first half of the original and was unimpressed. Plus the armor is such an eyesore it distracts from the story. That they go into the bookkeeping may be why the series is never really acclaimed by anyone?


Quote
You say you don't want to see him field test systems. But there are plenty of things they can do behind the scenes. We don't have to see everything, just to know that it wasn't swept under the rug, that Tony doesn't apparently have a huge warehouse of armors to select from.


You do realize that Extremis was the first time in years that anything new was really done to the armor? Powersource, bootjets, repulsors etc. were all the same for many models. Do they really need to waste time to even say "I did a bunch of field testing on systems I've used for years?" Not really.


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Where's the "fun" in "Well, okay, I just got my butt handed to me and another armor destroyed. Okay, I'll just grab another suit that's conveniently all set to go and proceed to wipe the floor with the villain"?


This has happened with a total of four armors: Silver Centurion, Neo Classic, War Machine and Modular. Four out of over a dozen suits. Modular armor debuted over fifteen years ago so I think you are making too much of this.


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Notice in the movie that the armor didn't spring full-grown from his imagination. He had to test the boot jets, which threw him against a wall when he first tried them, and the repulsors, which gave him a kick he'll never forget when he fired it. He had to flight-test his first iteration flying armor. Nobody complained that all of that was "boring."


The movie was an origin story. The debuts of the other armors were not sans the Heroes Reborn armor, and the whole point of that series was to reboot the characters. There is a major difference because in the comics all of that was covered and its not needed to be reviewed everytime Stark dons a new armor. The armor has also followed a slow evolution over forty years of comic history; that evolution won't fit into a two hour movie. Did you want to see him progress to the classic armor, then silver centurion, then neo classic etc. until we finally reached the current armor?


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Look at how easily he beat his Argonauts using his regular armor, most of which conveniently couldn't "read his mind" except for the Hulkbuster. If it's that simple, why even bother to have specialized suits?


And as I said when that issue hit the stands, the ending was extremely rushed and disappointing, the Argonauts being destroyed way too easily. The end of Execute Program was not good for a variety of reasons, such as the ones you mentioned.


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If we're going to ditch all sense of realism, we might as well go back to solar-charging the armor, or charging it from a portable gasoline generator like he sometimes did back in the Classic era.

You're taking this to the extreme now. Somethings work, some dont. Those you mentioned dont, which is why we havent seen them in how many decades? You'd have to go back to the days where comics were still very campy and not the best written works to find those instances. Comic writing has evolved a lot since the days of a gasoline generator recharge. You dont have to ditch all sense of realism, but you need to ditch quite a bit in order to make things work. Otherwise Stark would be carrying a miniature nuclear reactor on his back in order to power the armor that causes his to fall over half the time. I'll suspend my belief and stick to beta-particle generators and arc reactors.


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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 12:49:20 AM »

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You feel the stories are fine as is and that additional realism would be burdensome. I feel that the stories could be just as entertaining without sacrificing verisimilitude. There's apparently no middle ground.
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2010, 08:57:41 AM »

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This has happened with a total of four armors: Silver Centurion, Neo Classic, War Machine and Modular. Four out of over a dozen suits. Modular armor debuted over fifteen years ago so I think you are making too much of this.

To be fair it sort of happened with Extremis too. That story was also the old "Got my ass kicked, oh hey new advanced suit of armor ready to go". Although with Extremis the updates were more to Tony than to the armor.

This cliche never really bothered me though. It's part of Tony's character to plan ten steps ahead.
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